It’s always a challenge to separate the artist from the art. I’m a huge fan of William Burroughs’ work, and he killed his wife. I like a lot of what Picasso did and (despite what Jonathan Richman says), think he was a sadistic asshole.

At the same time, I can’t forgive Alice Cooper for being a Republican. That’s not a crime, but it’s not rock and roll.

Michael Jackson was a brilliant entertainer. As for the rest …

I’m reminded of a line from the previous season’s Doctor Who, where The Doctor meets a superbrilliant wunderkind - “No one’s said ‘no’ to you in a long time, have they?”

What Jackson needed (I think) desperately was someone to tell him “The things you are doing are not acceptable in the eyes of the public, and you must stop”. I made a comparison to Elvis in that way, in that he spent the majority of his life surrounded by people that got him what he wanted, told him he was great and cleaned up after him.

I am ready to believe that Michael Jackson was a very broken person, thanks to Poppa Joe and the magnifying glass he lived under. I am even ready to believe that the things he did, allegedly did and said were okay to do were “innocent” in his mind. I’m willing to accept “Sleep with children” meant exactly that, like a sleepover. There’s a very fine line between sexual predator and just plain creepy.

To be fair, the people who brought suit were also horribly broken, and their behavior after the case reflects that. Like so many, they got too close to a large amount of money and fame, and it changed them. Again, I leave open the possibility that there was a financial motive to their actions as well, taking an act or act still on the “creepy” side of the line and presenting it as if it was on the other.

The Wife had a very good question - she wondered what this does to all the nondisclosure and confidentiality agreements people signed with him over the years. As soon as the clock on the wall reads “Not ‘Too Soon’ “, I think we may hear about a great deal more things he has done over his life, things of varying weirdness, creepiness and, likely, veracity.

While we’re at it, there is a convicted child molester who never served any time, and is still revered in Hollywood. Well-respected actors, writers and others consider it a privilege to work with him.

Roman Polanski.

Of course, he’s white, so it’s not the same thing at all.

I’m a fan of Michael Jackson’s, but not a huge fan. I have a Jackson 5 greatest hits and a copy of Thriller. But for example, I’ve never seen the Captain Eo video.

Now, I think we can agree that Michael Jackson was a strange dude. And he did some very inappropriate things with children. Remember when he hung his infant child over the balcony railing of a hotel room for the benefit of fans and paparazzi?

I think he deserved to be investigated and tried for the charges of child abuse. BUT… he wasn’t found guilty. Mike, you are willing to say that your cursory examination of some out of context quotes and a few snippets of articles are worth more than the considered opinion of a jury?

Michael Jackson poured some wine in a kids pop can once. Was it inappropriate? Yes. Was it wrong? Yes. Did he make a regular habit of getting your children drunk in order to molest them? No. As far as I can tell, there is no record of that. Was that incident brought up at his trial? Yes. Again, was he found guilty by a group of his and our peers? No.

Here’s my question. Where was the common sense of the parents when notoriously weird Pop-Star Michael Jackson was asking if he could have sleepovers with their kids? Did they just take a vacation from common sense or have none to begin with? What made these parents think this was appropriate? Yes, Jackson was completely and totally out of line and innapropriate sharing a bed with young children! Does this mean he was a child molester? Apparently not, at least according to a jury that heard months of testimony and took time to deliberate on the evidence.

These children’s parents were equally wrong and innapropriate for letting Michael Jackson have sleep-overs and travel with their children. What were they thinking? “Well, if he does do something with my son or daughter, at least we can sue and get butt-loads of money!” Were these parents intentionally pimping out their kids in hopes of some Hollywood Payday? Rumors have it that some of them got one! How nauseating is that? How much money is your child’s dignity and sense of self worth?

Jackson was a weird, sad, sick little man. That will be part of his legend and legacy. His neurotic need to have so many cosmetic surgeries and procedures done, he not only stopped looking like himself, he stopped looking entirely human. There was something creepy about “the man in the mirror” and Michael knew it. I can only imagine that desperate desire to be someone else was based on a deep seated self-loathing. Jackson was slowly erasing himself. And at age 50, with the help of another physician, Michael Jackson finally got his wish.

Jackson complained about having his own childhood stolen from him. MJ’s father was a particularly abusive and controlling taskmaster. Jackson had an unnaturally sweet and high voice, even as an adult. Rumors were that all of his children were the product of a sperm donor. To what lengths did Michael Jackson or his father go to preserve the tender high range in his voice? How much pressure was put on Michael Jackson to never grow up? And was something medically done to ensure that?

Michael Jackson was a great singer. An iconic dancer A pretty good songwriter. And clearly a lonely, misguided, tragic and pathetic man. But Michael Jackson was examined, tried and found not guilty or pederasty. But I think labeling the man a “pederast” means that you have little faith in our judicial system. It means that you are willing to take your snippets of knowledge and innuendo and say they are worth more than the considered opinion of a jury.

I don’t think being white has anything (okay, *much*) to do with it. Plus, they are somewhat different scenarios. Polanski was convicted, which is right off a major difference.

The girl in question in Polanski’s case has gone on record saying he forgives him, and that the whole matter should be dropped. Indeed, she filed her own petition to have the case dismissed, as she’s sick of having to live through it. In Polanski’s case it could be argued that it was “merely” a one-time calamitious blunder in thought processes, one that has not beed repeated. It was a pattern that repeated and continued in Jackson’s part, and there was never any realization or admission that his actions could be percieved as wrong, regardless of their intent.

>>>”who never served any time”

Wiki reports he served 42 days at Chino, as part of a psychiactric evaluation, and was released. A drop in the bucket, but it’s something.

People considered Woody Allen’s actions with Soon-Yi pretty damn creepy as well, but they still line up to work with him. And there were still still lots of people clamoring to work with Michael as well. So in all cases, people may have clicked their tongues and passed judgement and made jokes, but there was money to be made, so justifications were made across the board.

So maybe they’re not all that different scenarios after all.

Chris Brown will be allowed to work again, We had the column a while back joking about how the NFL is trying to figure out how to bring back Michael Vick. The only color invoved is green.

At least no one’s trying to find ways to rehabilitate OJ in the eyes of the public.

Yet.

@Martha, Roman Polanski is living a life in exile. He may be revered in Hollywood, but he can’t go there. That may be free, but it’s not “free and clear.” Roman Polanski’s wife was brutally murdered in their home. He was a messed up dude and he had sex with one underage girl. He did not have a history of child abuse before or since. And Polanski plead guilty in a plea deal with the prosecutors and then some activist Judge nullified that deal and was ready to sentence Polanski to extended imprisonment. Polanski fled the country and has been gone ever since. I’m not excusing Polanski’s behavior. He royally messed up. But, even the girl that Polanski abused (now a woman 30 years later) has asked that the case be dropped saying that everyone involved has suffered enough.

I think R. Kelly is a much better example of an abusive man who has evaded prosecution. He married a girl when she was 15 without her parent’s knowledge or consent. He has a long history of abuse. Kelly even video taped himself with underage girls and still hasn’t come before a jury.

When Elvis died, the networks did not lead with that story. They led with actual news. Times have changed. Mark Sanford is probably very happy about the timing of Michael Jackson’s death. Same goes for the 200+ Republicans who voted against the climate bill, primarily based on the curious contention that global warming doesn’t exist. But while we’re all wailing about the passing of “the king of pop”, we don’t notice the stuff that actually matters. Of course, most people don’t notice the stuff that actually matters even when there isn’t a celebrity death to distract them.

It sucks to add a comment after guys like Vinnie, Russ, Rick, and Martha cover the good points. But for what it’s worth:

Separating the artist from the art isn’t always easy to do. I wholeheartedly admit I used to be a huge fan of professional wrestling. My favorite wrestler? Chris Benoit. When his death was announced, I watched the Raw tribute show to him, and admit I even cried. You think you know someone, based on the fruit of their labors. The next day, the details flooded in on the atrocity he had committed, and in one fell swoop, I lost all taste for wrestling, for Chris Benoit, and for any emotional investment I’d taken in the enjoyment of the programs.

Do I believe what Michael Jackson, by his own admission, was wrong? ‘Yes’ isn’t a strong enough word for it. But I needn’t add anything further to that thought. Russ’s comments cover that in great detail. I still enjoy many of the songs he put out into the lexicon of pop music. I still enjoy watching his videos.

Ultimately, the media in this country is going to flush much of the proclivities of MJ in lieu of bigger adbuys during tribute shows, biographies, and “We Remember” specials. History is written by the winners, and in this case, much of what troubled people (rightfully so) about Mr. Jackson will be buried under admiration, tears, and videographies.

“When Elvis died, the networks did not lead with that story. They led with actual news. ”

Well, I personally don’t recall what else happened that day, but if something newsworthy had happened on Friday, we would likely have gotten less Michael. The only things they had were “continuing” stories, like Sanford and Iran, and “new” news shoved them off the table, at least temporarily.

“Republicans who voted against the climate bill, primarily based on the curious contention that global warming doesn’t exist.”

…

I’ll wait for an actual column about global warming to comment on that.

@Martha: I’m not sure being a Republican is the same as being a pederast and a sexual sociopath, but the way things have been going lately I’m keeping an open mind. And yes, I greatly admire Polanski’s work and he has long been one of my favorite directors, but I haven’t been able to see anything he’s done since the kiddie rape charges stuck. Same as Jackson. No matter what the circumstances, Roman went to bed with a kid. As VInnie points out, he was locked up for 42 days and he would be again were he to set foot in the United States. As Russ points out, virtual exile counts for something.

@Russ: “Mike, you are willing to say that your cursory examination of some out of context quotes and a few snippets of articles are worth more than the considered opinion of a jury?” Yes. Absolutely. First of all, my examination of his quotes was not cursory nor were the quotes out of context. I convict him SOLELY of the words that came out of his mouth. The jury had no choice because the witnesses were publicly bought off — this isn’t a Capone deal here; we know all about the agreements. Michael Jackson was more than a sad little person. He was a pederast. And I’ll bet you I have AT LEAST as much faith in our judical system as you do.

Russ: Is O.J. Simpson guilty of murder? Chose between OJ’s post-trial behavior and the opinion of the jury. Yeah, sure, the investigation was largely built around race, but cut to the bottom line: do you believe OJ is guilty of murder? The jury MIGHT have thought so, but they had insufficient evidence upon which to convict. That’s how the system works: you need bona fide evidence, not public sentiment, to get a conviction. In my case, I regard uncoerced comments from the Accused to be bona fide evidence, from both Jackson and Simpson.

@Vinnie: I haven’t really studied the Soon-Yi case, but I do not recall any allegations of Woody actually bedding her while she was underage. As for the whole incest thing — that’s TOTAL bullshit. She wasn’t raised in his house, she wasn’t his daughter (that would be Andre Previn), and they never had any father/daughter relationship. But he might as well have been boycotted; his movies have been crap for the last 30 years.

Don’t get me started about R. Kelly.

I included Poppa Woody as another example of people who have done things considered wrong, or at least massively creepy and/or unsettling, but put those feelings aside to work with them. And no, it wasn’t incest, but it sure had an air of “incestiness” to it.

Lugosi was all but blackballed by Hollywood because of his addictions, Robert Downey Jr. was granted chance after chance. It’s good he seems to have sorted himself out, but a few decades earlier he’d not have gotten a chance. Some transgressions are considered worse than others, and some are more readily forgiven than others. I expect we may never hear from Michael Richards again, for example.

I recall the quotes you mention from Jackson (Something to the effect of “sleeping with a child is a wonderful thing” IIRC) and I looked for them but couldn’t find copies. Mayhap posting them might help clarify the words by which you came to your decisions. I’m still willing to hold the line at creepy, and not having the intent that makes it cross the line to true reprehensibility.

@ Mike: Being a Republican may be legal, but it’s gross.

And Polanski’s victim might have forgiven him, but that’s not entirely the point. Norman Mailer’s wife, Adele, forgave him, and while it is to his credit that he sought forgiveness, it doesn’t make stabbing her okay.

@Vinnie: The Allen story had the air of incestiness about it (isn’t that a perfume?) because Rosie O’Donnell kept on saying so. I’m not saying it wasn’t creepy, but Allen didn’t need Soon-Yi to make his story creepy.

Please note that at no time did I address Michael Jackson’s sundry idiosyncrasies. Any of ‘em. Just his getting little kids drunk on Jesus Juice and getting naked and taking them to his bed. Period. I’ve worked with a hell of a lot of kids who had been sexually abused — hundreds — so I’ve got a thing about that.

Drug abuse usually isn’t in the same category as child molestation. Well over 95% of all drug abusers (less, if you count alcohol) recover just fine. There have been plenty of drug users over the past 100 years who showed up for work and did a swell job: for every Judy Garland, there were several Peter Lorres (damn, I love that phrase). I said “usually” — if you get looped up on anything, including cold pills, and get behind the wheel and smash into a school bus carrying handicapped kids on their way to a prayer meeting, you get to smoke a turd in hell for a few centuries.

Right next to Bernie Madoff.

@Martha: Hey, there’ve been some good Republicans. A couple of ‘em ran against Richard J. Daley… although they used to be Democrats. Ev Dirksen was a good guy. Damn, I heard a conversation between him and Studs Terkel that I’d kill to get ahold of today. And Barry Goldwater was OK in my book the last 10 years or so of his life. There’s Lincoln. Lincoln was good. Teddie Roosevelt was the best Democrat ever to be a Republican. Hell, I’m voting Bull Moose in 2012. Unless they pick Raph Nader.

I absolutely agree with your point about Polanski, and particularly the way you phrased it. As for stabbing… well… gee… I can see how a stabbing could have been the result of impetuous behavior. “Oh, that Normie, gosh, that’s just what he does…”

re: “Well, I personally don’t recall what else happened that day, but if something newsworthy had happened on Friday, we would likely have gotten less Michael. ”

The Jackson story dominated the news all weekend. The death of a a guy who sold cleaning products by shouting at you made bigger headlines than a coup in Honduras.

Regardless of your views on global warming, a major reversal of U.S. policy on the topic should be newsworthy, but it’s easier to find stories on who will get custody of MJ’s kids than any information on the historic House vote on the climate bill.

The whitewashing of Michael Jackson is a direct result of the “news” media pandering to popular tastes because “stories” about the death of a cultural icon have longer legs than stories about a dead pervert who was addicted to plastic surgery.

I have long enough resisted the temptation not to call out the irony of the phrase “The whitewashing of Michael Jackson “. OK, moving on…

I think it’s just a force of habit people have when they say “Hey, lay off, the man’s dead”. I recall similar pleas when Nixon died. Many spent their time talking about Watergate, and others thought they should talk about his positives, at least for a bit. The mindset is to remember “the good things”, deserved or not. The phrase, “still, at least…” gets used a great deal.

There are certain people who (while it is technically not illegal to boink) it is still a social and moral outrage to have an affair with. You don’t mess around with your lover’s (and the mother of your children’s) … sisters, mothers, best friends and especially not their children! Soon Yi was in her early twenties when her affair with Woody Allen became public. But she was still living in her mother, Mia Farrow’s house. Woody Allen was SO wrong on SO many levels wrong, there just isn’t a place to begin to figure how he might have been right! And here’s the crux of it. Woody has made a career out of being professionally introspective. His whole shtick was built around his neurotic self analysis. But I don’t think to this day he has admitted he did anything wrong. Turns out, there was no analysis there, just purely self-centered selfishness. Allen was willing to poison his relationship not just with his lover, but also with his own children? Blech. Blechy-blech. It might not be illegal, but it’s incomprehensibly stupid and creepy.

It looks like a lot of gossip magazines are reporting that Evan Chandler the child that he allegedly molested is coming out and saying he lied for the money.

“Now for the first time I can’t bare to lie anymore. Michael Jackson didn’t do anything to me, all was my father lies to escape from being poor.”

@ Mike Gold: The Republican Party would no longer recognize any of those people as Republicans.

Russ, lucky for my career, stupid and creepy is not in and of itself illegal.

It’s hard to imagine Woody actually thought Mia would be good with his attentions towards Soon-Li, but if she paid attention to his movies she wouldn’t have been surprised. And maybe she wasn’t; she’s as creepy as Woody, in her own way.

Tatiana, Evan Chandler coming out now and saying he only did it for the money, if that’s what indeed happened, is more than a bit disingenuous. It certainly doesn’t help Jackson any now that the guy’s dead. I’m not sure how his saying Michael bedded him was a financially profitable experience — they made their real money by NOT testifying, and Jackson’s paying him not to testify does lend a fair degree of credibility to the charges. Still, my objection to an adult liquoring up a kid and taking him to bed has little to do with penetration (that’s another matter, one called “rape,” a word I tried to be careful to avoid). It’s how sexual predators fuck up kids’ heads real bad.

Besides, Michael was damned by HIS own comments, not Evan’s comments or lack thereof, or the comments of his many house guest and employees who acknowledged this behavior. My comments were based upon Jackson’s statements, period, which were clearly not coerced. Neither are those comments mitigated by his being “under extreme pressure.” If they were, then we would have to free every person in prison who ever signed a confession as, being under the threat of incarceration, all confessions were made “under extreme pressure” Even the ones that weren’t coerced.

Rick Oliver’s absolutely right (as he usually is, except for when I disagree with him). A lot of important stuff happened this weekend. The reason people who only casually followed the news this weekend didn’t know about it is because it was “all Michael Jackson, all the time.” It still is.

Poor Farrah.

@Martha — The Republican Party is headed the way of the Whigs unless they open themselves up to people who carry on the spirit of Dirksen and the latter-day Goldwater. And as they go down in sex scandal after sex scandal, there’s just no way they can continue to appeal to their base of right wing religious zealots who, by definition, find such behavior to be repulsive.

Pretty soon, the Republican Party will be kept alive for the very same reason that Wonder Woman remained in print from the 4=60s to the 80s: to keep the trademark alive.

Bastion of journalism News of the World has an article saying Chandler has written a book where he goes into detail about the relationship, which according to this article was VERY sexual.

Of course, a moment of research reveals that the book in question was written in 1997. Not that this is mentioned IN the article anywhere.

I’ll continue to sit in the back of the class and take notes on this one.

After Friday’s teaser, I was waiting for your column Mike. It wasn’t up early this morning when I had leave for the day. I’ve read it–and digested all of the responses. My turn…

While the comparisons to other notables may have some relevance, I’m going to focus on the subject at hand. The thing that matters most to me is that Jackson was in a position of power and control and abused it. His talents caused him to be adored and valued by millions and those lucky enough to get close seemingly bent over backwards (and forwards) to retain or increase their relationship. As my girl Cyndi sings: “Money changes everything.”

The extent that Jackson abused his great power–we may never really know. Honestly, I don’t belong in the throngs of idol worshipers. For me, he never was an icon. I admire his vocal and dancing skills but they never moved me much.

I was far more fascinated by his discomfort–with his race, his age group (once an adult) and his physical form. He was clearly uncomfortable in these areas. To deny these issues is to obfuscate reality.

The area that garnered Jackson the greatest trouble was his overt rapt attention to kids. I abide many human flaws. Child molestation is not one of them and for that–and the firestorm his flirtation raised, I could never feel comfortable with the adulation he attracted. He was a beautiful man who appeared to loath himself and required the attention of others for self-validation. That validation seemed to be most intensely directed toward kids.

Again, the need for power and control–so prevalent in the psychological dissections of rapists. Tome after tome on the subject has focused on the fact that for most child molesters and rapists–sex isn’t the primary driving force. The need to assert power and control over potential and realized victims is.

So for me, the great debate concerning whether Jackson did or did not consummate a sexual act is moot. He wore the mask and wore it well.
I believe many in his inner circle have acknowledged Jackson was never the same after the molestation trial. Clearly, he was lacking a moral compass. His lack of control over most areas in his life is simply astounding. I’ve been around people who were lost. They were fortunate to be able to spin in their vortex far away from public scrutiny.
For Jackson, his life appeared to have more to do with Greek tragedy than anything else.

Finally, in a comment to Michael Davis’ Friday column, Martha recalled seeing a poster of Jackson in an NYC Subway years ago and remembered him as one of the prettiest people she had seen. Her remark hit me hard when the cover of this week’s Time was flashed on TV yesterday. Please, someone, tell me he doesn’t look like a gorgeous gay man. For me, there’s little humor here. And I thing you folks know how much I love to jest. Not this time.

Don’t know why my name got truncated but that was indeed l’il ole me back there.

Last night’s #1 story on Countdown….Michael Jackson!

@Pennie — Very well said.

@Rick — Yeah, but Olbermann’s “countdown” is always backwards. The leading story is #5, and it opens the show. The second most important story, often a sidebar to the most important story, is #4. However, Bizarro-Olbermann numbers the stories in opposite order. Oh, and Bizarro-Jackson is still alive.